SafetyNet was a mistake in general. But banks specifically are among the most obnoxious shitters when it comes to "you aren't allowed to do things except the way we want it".
Over and over again you have to contend with bullshit like 120MB APKs full of obfuscated code, root detection, custom firmware detection, "non-mainstream device" detection, VPN detection, and even more obscure spyware-flavored functionality.
By now, if a major regulator like EU steps in, cracks the whip, and forces banks to provide access through a common API standard to any third party banking app? I'd welcome the change.
My (Dutch) bank Rabobank also blocks GrapheneOS [0], I contacted them about it, you get the usual thing, that "security is very important to them". Arguing is completely pointless, they don't understand what they are talking about. The Rabobank app works fine on Android phones that haven't seen updates in years...
However, via Aurora store it works fine (inc Wero)... I do feel a bit uncomfortable about it, but it's a one-to-one connection to the Play Store, so should be fine... What I don't understand is how that can work, the app itself does no checking after it is installed I guess? Not how I'd architect it...
My other bank, bunq, keeps whining about some service but functions normally nevertheless (I should give Play services access to my "Phone", I don't understand what that entails so I refuse it). N26 and Trade Republic just work.
I don't get wireless payments via Google Pay, but I don't even want that. So I'm really looking forward to Walt [1]. I would even start my sub now if that'd help him get it available in a year... At the moment there is Curve Pay [2], they have their own NFC stack. Bunq also used to have that (back when they were very pro-privacy) but they ditched it in favor of that horrible Google Pay.
It says "If your device uses a modified version of Android (a custom ROM), such as LineageOS or Pixel Experience, the Wero app cannot be installed for security reasons."
It's absolutely ridiculous but it seems this is intended by Wero for now. I hope there's enough pushback that the banks can overturn such a ridiculous requirement. I think everyone who is impacted by this should contact their bank to show them this is a real issue.
I'd like to use this moment to praise ING. I have an old tablet running quite modern LinageOS. The ROM is rooted and I use apps that require root accounts. Its almsot only purpose is banking. I don't have banking apps on my main phone.
I have ING app installed on the tablet, the only issues the bank has with it is I get more notifications wanting me to do online training on cyber security or being scammed. I get the same notification every few weeks that my device is rooted and it is "potentially more vulnerable", I can click "I understand" or "Learn more". No other issues, it's not blocking me from doing anything, not forcing any updates, doesn't limit any functionality of the app. Despite my salary is not paid to ING, ING is my main bank. Monzo UK didn't allow me to run on LinageOS on a tablet, Revolut isn't available on tablets at all.
In Holland, GrapheneOS users are being targeted by police after "busting" a re-seller. The owners of the phones got raided without them being involved in any investigation. Just having the phone was enough to get a knock.
Supposedly the Dutch police had "cracked" their phones.
I really hope this doesn't mean other Dutch banks will follow suit. It's already quite impossible to actually contact someone at the bank who can understand the issue if it's on the technical side. I have no idea how I would even start to broach this topic with ABN Amro.
Some more details: various people contacted ASN, but they are mostly pointing to Wero. The Play Integrity check is performed in the method nl.devolksbank.mobile.banking.security.data.wero.IntegrityRepository#requestIntegrityToken. From the name, this seems to be ASN's own code and not an SDK from Wero. Someone also found that the integrity token gets sent to ASN's own servers: https://m.devolksbank.nl/bspc-payment-consent-administration... (De Volksbank is the owner of ASN).
If this comes from Wero as they claim, I guess we Europeans in countries that are covered by Wero are in for a bad time. That said, some Dutch banks also made the migration from iDEAL to Wero and don't require Play Integrity.
I have a Pixel 6 with eOS and am happy that my banking app works on here. If it were to suddenly stop working, I would be kind of screwed though.
Similar thing happened with my Health Insurance. Germany is pushing towards getting rid of health insurance cards in favor of a digital identity. To manage this, use the NFC functionality at the doctor, and log into the insurance app or website for fetching messages, documents or other information, you will in the future have to authenticate yourself using a new authenticator app. Now the problem is, that the app from my insurer does not work! Surely because of some "non-standard Android" b****. Contacting their support is obviously useless, as they have no tech knowledge and assume that I have even less, therefore just regurgitate the same "how to install the app" steps from the Q&A. All I have left is to switch to a different insurance, who's ID app works on my phone.
While this is all very annoying, I do see the point that especially banking and insurance has to be very secure. And they aim to achieve this by obfuscation. Against this one might argue that open code is more secure, as everyone can check it. But this goes both ways, for good and bad intentions. And are there not much more resources and energy behind the bad than the good intentions?
Always install these apps and negatively review them, specifically mention banning of GrapheneOS, there is absolutely no plausible reason for that.
I get banning rooted devices and unlocked bootloader (despite I disagree of them being ground for banning), but GrapheneOS left no possible excuse to anyone.
My bank app works on GrapheneOS but checks play integrity and disables biometrics and lowers limits.
Thankfully I'm not forced to use it since I can log into the bank and authorize transactions with the government digital signature app, which uses hardware attestation and considers GOS fully secure.
Funnily enough, the bank's app crashes on launch with memory tagging enabled which means they have memory bugs.
This will keep happening so long as GrapheneOS is a "niche" operating system. We need to build up economic leverage by increasing GrapheneOS usage numbers until they can no longer afford to block it.
Many people here are missing what the business model of banks is, they're in the business of creating absolute trust with their customers, as soon as that evaporates, the banks stops being viable. That means eliminating any (perceived) risk, whether real or not. From the banks perspective this move reduces the attach surface thereby reducing risk which is worth the tradeoff of an inconvenience to the 1% of people that would even care about this move.
GrapheneOS merely needs more users, so that there is more pressure on banks and other app devs to support these (or, to pressure Google in return for a more agnostic integrity check).
I therefore welcome the Motorola initiative to support GrapheneOS, but it would be even better if devices were sold with it, and even better if there were devices for multiple price points.
Two of my credit unions (the only ones I tried) 'stealth block' this by refusing to accept checks I try to take pictures of. It will just refuse to work with a no descriptive error message. These are large credit unions.
One one hand with all the fraud and identity scams I know they have a difficult job. But, on the other, they also rely on sending me txts to login-no proper 2fa like TOTP security codes.
This is a result of the duopoly. You abdicate too much responsibility to the platform because it is easier for you. It ends up in a spiral of more lock-in to the platform and more power to its owners.
It should become illegal for these kinds of institutions to block access to random devices without reason.
How does the EU want to be self sufficient if even accessing your bank relies on an American advertising company?
Everything is being digitized, yet nothing has ever been as unusable as it is now
Dont take the fact that Wero still works for Bunq as an indicator that ASN or any other bank are doing something especially untowards.
Given Bunq's abysmal security track record it probably means they just forgot to enforce some policy that Wero requires on mobile devices - no matter how annoying these "no grapheneOS" policies are in general, of course.
Ah so that is what is been happening. I suddenly lost the ability to pay my friends back last week. They did not tell me anything was about to change. I've been in contact with the service desk for about 4 days now, they themselves have not yet figured out that my e/os s9 is the problem it seems.
I was done with Android when I couldn't take screenshots of my Revolut/bank app/other apps. So far, iOS hasn't had a problem with this. Is it less secure, then? No, it was never about security, just control.
The EU's push for digital sovereignty will win out over stuff like this in the end. They're going to want a European vetted version of Android. At least if I were European, that's what I'd want.
I remember my bank requiring to install a com plugin to use it, limiting it to windows. Later they moved to java applet limiting it to Linux 32-bit for some reason. Mostly it would not work on my hardware
ASN was pretty bad - they recently wanted me to renew KYC/ID info. They wanted to install a Chrome Plugin that then would read the government KYC data. I nope'd out of that very fast. The alternative indeed was an app.
I'm not in the android rooting / modding scene anymore, but isn't there just a way to install a (Magisk?) module or something to spoof the Safetynet check anymore? I'm not saying that is a great idea, just in my memory theres workaround for this kinda thing.
So we had something good in the Netherlands with iDeal, then they had to make it EU global and they messed it up.
For starters there is going to be percentage commission on each payment instead of just a flat fee low price like iDeal has. For some reason they felt compelled to introduce buyer protection like a credit card has, instead of just making it a digital debit payment system. And now we are also forced in to the Google ecosystem.
Great. Just great.
Why do they even feel they need the Google Play integrity API anyway? If you are really so concerned about the kind of attacks that supposedly fixes, you better ban Windows, macOS and Linux desktops and notebooks from banking online. Because their security model doesn't even come close to what Android or iOS has.
> To maintain that level of quality, we also need to be clear about our system requirements and avoid dedicating resources to troubleshooting issues on unsupported platforms and configurations.
This is such a corporate non-answer. If that was the problem, they could just detect the custom ROM and when someone calls support, the support agent could just say sorry not supported and hang up. I doubt that is the real issue.
One troubling possibility is that some security might be implemented client-side. Banks are ahead in security in some areas but far behind in others. Like in some cases you can just take money out of someones account if you know their account number, they rely on manual fraud detection, heuristics, and chargebacks. Instead of standard 2FA, my countries banks use a baroque parallel system. My password was for many years a word like "toast": It had a maximum length, had to be pronounceable over the telephone, was case insensitive etc.. Third party payment providers don't use something like OAuth but directly ask for my bank's password, and they used to just scrape the bank site, and so on.
But I think the real reason is regulatory, political, or due to pressure from the platforms. There is no pressing business or technical reason to go out of their way to block custom ROMs.
Ah, my bank. They're actually kind of bad all round and I am going to switch to something actually modern eventually but you know, switching banks is not something you do casually
This is atleast understandable in the Europe given the geopolitical closeness to the US.
What to say of 'dumb' frenemy countries like India that tie themselves with a leash and hand it over to Google/Apple? More so with the new signing requirements for Android - which can be removed at a whim that would disable all UPI apps that manage a large fraction of the transactions.
These semi- colonized countries clearly haven't learnt jack shit from what was done to Russia and China.
ASN has been dysfunctional for years. They needed a bailout and ever since have only deteriorated in their operations. To be fair, their risk management has surely improved and their new CEO is great. But their actual operations are superbad. They only do the easy loans and mortgages because anything else they can't do. Still I think as a bank they are doing well, everyone is opening accounts there. Marketing matters more than service I suppose.
If you change phone operator, there is number portability. But changing banks is a lot harder.
The EU could do what the UK did, which is making switching bank bank account automated for people (transaction forwarding, migrating direct debit authorizations, etc.). A lot of people might switch to more competent banks. I'm stuck with Deutsche Bank in Germany, for example. Switching would be a bit of a hassle. I'd have to make sure all the direct debit stuff gets changed to the new account (tax office, various insurances, etc.) all doable but it's a bit of friction. I'd be chasing different companies with forms, emails, etc. for a while.
There are a lot of user hostile banks that deserve to lose their customers because of their ineptness. The surviving ones would probably become a lot more service friendly. That's what competition does. German banks are particularly bad. I've lived in other EU countries. So, I have hands on experience with more competent banks.
The title sets a lot of blame on the bank, but there might be other factors at play. It is possible that either national or european regulations or laws makes it mandatory for the banks to comply with a set of security features that makes it impossible for them to offer services to degoogled phones. There might not be any alternative because it would cost too much money to develop and more importantly to distribute it. It can also be the case that Google uses its influence over the android open source project to make sure it will never be the case.
So stop using the application on your smartphone. Just use your desktop computer, and if they block that start going into the bank and make them pay real people at their real physical locations to do the work. Or use your phone to call them and do it over voice. Don't just give in and let them monetize you and force you to put insecure software on your hardware (like google play and other corporate controlled backdoors).
So much for european countries wanting to become independent
of the USA.
There is no cohesive strategy. It will literally require a new
generation of younger people to replace the old lobbyists here -
and some of these younger people will become corrupt lobbyists
as well.
Open standards should become a human right. I am not kidding. I
fail to see why services in a given country, get tied down to
foreign companies and foreign countries.
While no longer popular, decentralized banking via cryptocurrency/digital currency would have made unilateral access issues impossible.
Want to access your wallet on the chain? The tech doesn’t give a shit about what device you use. Just present the private key to wallet and access funds.
But alas the tech never took off beyond grifters/scammers and speculators use case. Also, people would rather trade the promise of safety that centralized banking promises (deposit insurance, regulations, access to person that may help resolve lock out issues, …).
Well guess why they do that, they're not taking your freedrums, Americans, this is a legitimate anti fraud framework step, dont ask, I work in payment processing.
Dutch 'idealist' bank ASN blocks non-Google Android, including GrapheneOS
(github.com)596 points by microtonal 11 hours ago | 388 comments
Comments
Over and over again you have to contend with bullshit like 120MB APKs full of obfuscated code, root detection, custom firmware detection, "non-mainstream device" detection, VPN detection, and even more obscure spyware-flavored functionality.
By now, if a major regulator like EU steps in, cracks the whip, and forces banks to provide access through a common API standard to any third party banking app? I'd welcome the change.
However, via Aurora store it works fine (inc Wero)... I do feel a bit uncomfortable about it, but it's a one-to-one connection to the Play Store, so should be fine... What I don't understand is how that can work, the app itself does no checking after it is installed I guess? Not how I'd architect it...
My other bank, bunq, keeps whining about some service but functions normally nevertheless (I should give Play services access to my "Phone", I don't understand what that entails so I refuse it). N26 and Trade Republic just work.
I don't get wireless payments via Google Pay, but I don't even want that. So I'm really looking forward to Walt [1]. I would even start my sub now if that'd help him get it available in a year... At the moment there is Curve Pay [2], they have their own NFC stack. Bunq also used to have that (back when they were very pro-privacy) but they ditched it in favor of that horrible Google Pay.
[0] https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/24630-rabobank-app-no-longe...
[1] https://walt.is/
[2] https://www.curve.com/
I looked it up and found this official wero page: https://support.wero-wallet.eu/hc/nl/articles/25599098295313...
It says "If your device uses a modified version of Android (a custom ROM), such as LineageOS or Pixel Experience, the Wero app cannot be installed for security reasons."
It's absolutely ridiculous but it seems this is intended by Wero for now. I hope there's enough pushback that the banks can overturn such a ridiculous requirement. I think everyone who is impacted by this should contact their bank to show them this is a real issue.
I have ING app installed on the tablet, the only issues the bank has with it is I get more notifications wanting me to do online training on cyber security or being scammed. I get the same notification every few weeks that my device is rooted and it is "potentially more vulnerable", I can click "I understand" or "Learn more". No other issues, it's not blocking me from doing anything, not forcing any updates, doesn't limit any functionality of the app. Despite my salary is not paid to ING, ING is my main bank. Monzo UK didn't allow me to run on LinageOS on a tablet, Revolut isn't available on tablets at all.
Supposedly the Dutch police had "cracked" their phones.
In Dutch https://archive.is/3wawb
https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/is...
I really hope this doesn't mean other Dutch banks will follow suit. It's already quite impossible to actually contact someone at the bank who can understand the issue if it's on the technical side. I have no idea how I would even start to broach this topic with ABN Amro.
If this comes from Wero as they claim, I guess we Europeans in countries that are covered by Wero are in for a bad time. That said, some Dutch banks also made the migration from iDEAL to Wero and don't require Play Integrity.
Similar thing happened with my Health Insurance. Germany is pushing towards getting rid of health insurance cards in favor of a digital identity. To manage this, use the NFC functionality at the doctor, and log into the insurance app or website for fetching messages, documents or other information, you will in the future have to authenticate yourself using a new authenticator app. Now the problem is, that the app from my insurer does not work! Surely because of some "non-standard Android" b****. Contacting their support is obviously useless, as they have no tech knowledge and assume that I have even less, therefore just regurgitate the same "how to install the app" steps from the Q&A. All I have left is to switch to a different insurance, who's ID app works on my phone.
While this is all very annoying, I do see the point that especially banking and insurance has to be very secure. And they aim to achieve this by obfuscation. Against this one might argue that open code is more secure, as everyone can check it. But this goes both ways, for good and bad intentions. And are there not much more resources and energy behind the bad than the good intentions?
I get banning rooted devices and unlocked bootloader (despite I disagree of them being ground for banning), but GrapheneOS left no possible excuse to anyone.
Thankfully I'm not forced to use it since I can log into the bank and authorize transactions with the government digital signature app, which uses hardware attestation and considers GOS fully secure.
Funnily enough, the bank's app crashes on launch with memory tagging enabled which means they have memory bugs.
It also make me feel safer not to have always on me the key to all my accounts.
I therefore welcome the Motorola initiative to support GrapheneOS, but it would be even better if devices were sold with it, and even better if there were devices for multiple price points.
One one hand with all the fraud and identity scams I know they have a difficult job. But, on the other, they also rely on sending me txts to login-no proper 2fa like TOTP security codes.
We need at least a third option [1].
[1] https://blog.ovalerio.net/archives/3359
Given Bunq's abysmal security track record it probably means they just forgot to enforce some policy that Wero requires on mobile devices - no matter how annoying these "no grapheneOS" policies are in general, of course.
Time to switch banks again I guess?
Feels like we have enough motivated and skill people to do and maintain that.
For starters there is going to be percentage commission on each payment instead of just a flat fee low price like iDeal has. For some reason they felt compelled to introduce buyer protection like a credit card has, instead of just making it a digital debit payment system. And now we are also forced in to the Google ecosystem.
Great. Just great.
Why do they even feel they need the Google Play integrity API anyway? If you are really so concerned about the kind of attacks that supposedly fixes, you better ban Windows, macOS and Linux desktops and notebooks from banking online. Because their security model doesn't even come close to what Android or iOS has.
This is such a corporate non-answer. If that was the problem, they could just detect the custom ROM and when someone calls support, the support agent could just say sorry not supported and hang up. I doubt that is the real issue.
One troubling possibility is that some security might be implemented client-side. Banks are ahead in security in some areas but far behind in others. Like in some cases you can just take money out of someones account if you know their account number, they rely on manual fraud detection, heuristics, and chargebacks. Instead of standard 2FA, my countries banks use a baroque parallel system. My password was for many years a word like "toast": It had a maximum length, had to be pronounceable over the telephone, was case insensitive etc.. Third party payment providers don't use something like OAuth but directly ask for my bank's password, and they used to just scrape the bank site, and so on.
But I think the real reason is regulatory, political, or due to pressure from the platforms. There is no pressing business or technical reason to go out of their way to block custom ROMs.
What to say of 'dumb' frenemy countries like India that tie themselves with a leash and hand it over to Google/Apple? More so with the new signing requirements for Android - which can be removed at a whim that would disable all UPI apps that manage a large fraction of the transactions.
These semi- colonized countries clearly haven't learnt jack shit from what was done to Russia and China.
The EU could do what the UK did, which is making switching bank bank account automated for people (transaction forwarding, migrating direct debit authorizations, etc.). A lot of people might switch to more competent banks. I'm stuck with Deutsche Bank in Germany, for example. Switching would be a bit of a hassle. I'd have to make sure all the direct debit stuff gets changed to the new account (tax office, various insurances, etc.) all doable but it's a bit of friction. I'd be chasing different companies with forms, emails, etc. for a while.
There are a lot of user hostile banks that deserve to lose their customers because of their ineptness. The surviving ones would probably become a lot more service friendly. That's what competition does. German banks are particularly bad. I've lived in other EU countries. So, I have hands on experience with more competent banks.
Is it legit?
There is no cohesive strategy. It will literally require a new generation of younger people to replace the old lobbyists here - and some of these younger people will become corrupt lobbyists as well.
Open standards should become a human right. I am not kidding. I fail to see why services in a given country, get tied down to foreign companies and foreign countries.
https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/is...
There is an alternative to Google's proprietary and unprivate integrity API that every bank now uses (and is at the root cause of this issue):
https://uattest.net
Spread the word.
Want to access your wallet on the chain? The tech doesn’t give a shit about what device you use. Just present the private key to wallet and access funds.
But alas the tech never took off beyond grifters/scammers and speculators use case. Also, people would rather trade the promise of safety that centralized banking promises (deposit insurance, regulations, access to person that may help resolve lock out issues, …).
All other banks only allow you to open an account via their app.
This.is.a.good.decision